In this episode, Jared interviews Emily White. Emily, who has worked with artists such as Ben Folds and Trey Anastasio shared her insights on the music industry. They discuss the importance of data in the music industry and how musicians can collect contact information from fans to grow their business.
Hey gigging pros. It's Jared and welcome back to another episode of The Gigging Musician Podcast. I'm super pumped today we have a special guest Emily White. Emily White is a partner at collective entertainment and founder of the I Voted Festival that's hashtag I Voted Festival. Emily is also author of "How To Build A Sustainable Music Career and Collect All Revenue Streams". And Emily has Overstreet overseeing the careers of musicians, comedians, athletes, and has been a successful tour manager including a tour that featured Imogen Heap and a successful music consultant. So Emily, thanks so much for being on the Gigging Musician Podcast. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Jared. Awesome. My pleasure. Emily, would you mind telling us about your background as a musician and manager and consultant, all the things that you do? Sure, I'm not a musician. I did take piano lessons and guitar lessons as a kid but my talent did not lie there at all. I'm originally from Wisconsin, and I went to Northeastern University in Boston. I went there when I was 17 years old. I didn't know anyone in the music industry. And I did a lot of internships in college, I interned at Powderfinger promotions, which does college radio and PR. I interned at a great unfortunately, not there anymore, but a great alternative radio station called WBCN. I interned for an indie label outside of Boston. Northeastern was big on interning they call it co opting, and we were on the quarter system at the time. So I was able to alternate quarters and semesters interning and going to school. And then I interned at what's now Live Nation, New England. Through that I got it was great at the time, not that it isn't great now a great job, ripping tickets and doing guest lists at some of my favorite venues in Boston. After that, I did an internship at VH, one classic in New York. And then yeah, then I met a band called The Dresden Dolls, when I was when I was back in Boston, and that's a massive part of my early career. In fact, that was the first band I tour managed for. I did an internship at MTV in the UK. And then I came back. After that, that was my senior year of college, and I was out in Los Angeles with the Dresden Dolls. By then they had taken on a great manager named Mike Luba. And we were in the control room at KC RW. And Luba said, when you graduate, you'll come work for me at Madison House, which was his company, which was founded in Boulder, Colorado, but he worked in the New York office. And I started to managing when I was 20. And so when I graduated, we worked it out where I would tour manage the Dresden Dolls. And then when I wasn't on the road, I would work in the office at Madison House doing day to day management. So people might know that an artist pays a tour manager. And then at a management company, if you're a day to day manager, you get paid by the management company. So basically two entities were paying me part time when I graduated, which made it full time for me and for everyone. So it was kind of a win for everyone. I retired from tour managing when I was 23. I came off the road at that time because Madison House had had taken on more artists recently to manage so the partners needed help in the office. And then around that time, this was like technology wise 2007 or so I'd seen and I'd seen a fan come up to the singer of the Dresden Dolls, Amanda Palmer at a show and offer her or get someone gave her a check for like $200 and said, I just want to support you and your art. And this is way before Patreon or Bandcamp or anything like that. And Amanda's for solo album was coming out. And I thought, you know, why can't we just, again, technology wise, we were kind of like instant messaging, zip files back and forth. albums and music and stuff. And so I knew the label would never let us do this. But I was like, Well, why can't we just released her album? First suggested donation like, like a museum would do because this was the iTunes era. And it's like if someone wants to give her $200 Why are we limiting it to 999 on iTunes? So I started I put together a little business plan for that. I shared it with both of my bosses. Lubo was like this is amazing, let's get on a call. My other boss is like this will never work you know, go back to working on your artists. And I started working on it in my spare time I got an even though I knew the the label that she was signed to would not be open to something like that. And a few months later, radio heads and rainbows came out which was the exact same concept and naysaying boss. His favorite band is Radiohead. So when I came into the office, he was like, you know, Radiohead stole your idea. So that was knowledge man. And maybe it wasn't the worst idea. But I mentioned all that because Luba passed on my business plan to Bob Ezrin, who produced Pink Floyd's The Wall amongst a million other things. And Luca and Ezrin, were moving to Miami to become a part of a new half a billion dollar division of Live Nation called Live Nation artists, which is now rock nation. So as Ren liked my business plan, he hired me, I was like 24 going in, so I moved to Miami then and going into that I was like, this is either going to be the biggest thing ever, or a big disaster. And, um, but I was, again, I was young enough that I knew I knew if it was going to be disaster, that it would be a great learning experience. For me, I kind of viewed it like grad school. So I picked up and moved to Miami, which was a difficult, I mean, it was a no brainer, kind of professionally, but it was still hard because I left the artists I was managing at the time. And the first few weeks were amazing. It was like a think thank for the music industry. And in a really exciting time, as the industry was really fully shifting to digital. And we were I mean, the first artists we signed were Madonna, you to Jay Z, like, you know, they were trying to literally sign every artist in the world. And then they did a deal with Zac Brown Band, which was like, only a million dollar deal. All those other deals were like 150 million. And they said, Okay, well, we're gonna give Zack they gave it back to me to work on because they're like, you know, you know how to use the internet and develop artists. And I said, I don't really know anything about country. What are his ticket counts in Nashville? And the answer was 44. Four and zero sounds like work to do. But obviously, that that first album was was really successful. And in the midst of that, there were there were rumors in the Wall Street Journal that the person who ran our office, Michael Cole, who was who is the Rolling Stones, longtime promoter was not getting along with Michael Rubino who runs life nation. And we ended up getting laid off seven months into being there. So when that happened, I had a few job offers, that kind of felt like parallel moves to absolutely no offense to Madison House, but to Madison House and and what I was doing previously, and Luba and as he sat me down, and they said, you know, you're welcome to stick with us. But we're blocked by a huge non compete, and we can't do music for like two years. And that's not you. You know, and they said, you, you know, there's artists who want to work with you, you should move back to Brooklyn and start a management company, you know, you know, all sides of this business. If you need anything, we're here, but like, you got this and, and they were right. So I launched my first management company in 2008. It was called White Smith entertainment. And we launched by managing musicians and comedians. And then we expanded in 2012, into sports. My longtime business partner, Carrie Smith left management in 2018. And so I quickly partnered with two protegees, from the company and launched collective entertainment in 2018. And said, you know, on one hand, I want this to be whatever you want on the other, I'm just moving our music and sports divisions over. I can't believe it's been four years, though, already. So yeah, so I've been running management and consulting firms, I guess, for the past, whatever that is, 14 years, or something like that. And I released my first book in 2017. That's called 'Interning 101'. And then, yeah, and then we found it I Voted Festival in 2018. The presidential election in 2016, was decided by 22,000 votes and change. It was decided next door in Michigan by 10,000 votes and change and I'd read that voter turnout was down in Milwaukee and I was like 22,000 is the Pfizer forum. So why don't we put together a compelling concert and tie in voting. So in 2018, we activated over 150 venues in 37 states to let fans in on election night who show a selfie from outside their polling place, and a ton of amazing artists performed and it was it was really an idea that caught fire. So in 2020, we pivoted to produce the largest digital concert in history, we had over 450 artists participate who were all booked for the data. The top streaming acts in and from these key states who, whose electoral margins are often decided by the size of a concert venue, and fans RSVP to access that webcast with a selfie at home with their blank and unmarked ballot And then yeah, and then I wrote 'How To Build A Sustainable Music Career and Collect All Revenue Streams', I guess three years ago. And that was just, you know, actually similar to the first book that was information, although a little more with this book, it was, you know, I didn't set out to be an author. It was, you know, musicians kept asking to get coffee and pick my brain. And I just was having the same conversations over and over. So I was like, why don't I write this down for everyone? And then the second half of the table title 'And Collect All Revenue Streams', stems from my company, taking on artists and always finding money for them. And so if that is happening to, you know, national and international acts, then then what about everyone else? I turned the book into a podcast 'Interning 101' is also a podcast, I highly recommend anyone who puts out a book should do that. And yeah, I think that pretty much brings us up to date that's like this. That's the shortest version I can give of my background. Awesome. Wow. That is a an amazing career. So many parts to it. And I'm just so fascinated because you are not a musician, I guess, or were you always passionate about music? And is that kind of why you got on the track of artist management? Definitely. I think in middle school, I was voted like most likely to be a roadie. They clearly just like made most likely. Yeah, I was I was always writing music when I went to tons of shows growing up, you know, just was, I was just like the music geek, the music nerd. And like I said, I realized that my talent wasn't in, you know, being a musician very early on. So I've always just been a strong advocate for artists. And then on the industry side. Yeah, for sure. And in the music industry, there is a big, I don't want to call it like a divide between the DIY musician and the artists, with managers. But what are some of the what are some of the key plays that you have made as a non musician to help these artists grow in their careers? I mean, it really comes down to well, you know, the first chapter of the book is called 'Get Your Art Together'. So there's no point of doing anything else, unless the art and the music is great. And so you know, and your heart and your soul, like, when your music is ready for the world, I get approached all the time by artists, you know, wanting to share their music saying, you know, I just need to work on my vocals, or I need a new drummer. And it's like, well do that, you know, before you share it with people or, um, you know, plenty of us get, you know, messages from people wanting our feedback on music. And it's like, Well, did you write it for me? You know, like, my point on that is, I think that any artists can have a career and it's all about building your fan base, collecting their data, and continuing to make great art and then growing that fan base, like it's just a continued process. So um, yeah, it's it likes that it starts with great art and then connecting with your fan base, and then making sure you're collecting their email addresses, mobile phone numbers, and bonus points if you can get their their zip code or their postcode for your long term use that that's what it's all about. Everything else is kind of bullshit, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, I could see how that works for. So I come from a completely different background, I play in a string quartet, we play covers of modern day songs, and also those from the 1800s. So we don't have original songs. We don't have a fan base, but my group makes over six figures from our performances each year. So I could, you know, my group would say, we don't need a fan base. What are some of the revenue streams that you tell that your artists that they need to have that work really well with a fan base? Um, well, I have my book right here, and I can share those with you. So there's a there's 10 revenue streams that an artist needs to be collecting on if they write, record and play live. There's only two sorry, there's only two last if you don't write your songs, so there's eight if you don't write your songs. So that's distribution, Director fan digital distribution, obviously, if you're a songwriter, Performing Rights Organization, the other one for songwriters is music publishing. Otherwise, this is certainly owed to you as a recording artist sound exchange, you can definitely set up a Patreon online merch, live performances and webcasts and live merch. And then I also identified a list of bonus revenue streams. Like the first list is basically like I said, if you are recording and playing live as well as songwriting, like if you're not collecting on those 10 things, you're missing out on money. The other ones Bonus because you, you might have to do something to get them instead of just kind of things that you're owed. So that's VIP, VIP live show offerings, live recordings, catalog releases on vinyl. You could also distribute your vinyl to the coalition of independent music stores. They'll buy that directly from you. Producing sheet music offering music lessons, podcast revenue. Oh, also these are these are bonus because they're not guaranteed. So branding, sponsorship endorsements, I think that gets talked about way too much at conferences and stuff because that's not necessary. On one hand, it's not necessarily available to everyone on the other like it can be, you know, like start local start start with local brands, local partnerships, it doesn't need to be I'm just gonna say Apple because like nobody gets an apple sponsorship like even Trent Reznor or whatever. So speaking engagements, sync licenses, that's another one, it's like, you can't count on that, you know, so it's like, I would be remiss to not talk about that. But it's not necessarily something that's guaranteed. YouTube royalties tend to be very low unless you have millions and millions of views. So that's why I put that in the bonus category. And of course, playing on other artists recordings, session work and shows as well as producing, mixing, mastering re mixing other artists recordings, or arranging songs for other artists. Okay, awesome. So the majority of the listeners on our gigging musician podcast typically don't write their own songs. So do you have any thoughts about how to cover musicians, classical, or jazz musicians who don't write their own original music or even record can leverage some of those revenue streams? Yeah, they can do everything in the first list except for collect on PRO royalties, as well as music publishing. So eight out of 10 isn't so bad. That's for sure. Yeah. Do you have any experience like with private events? Oh, yeah, definitely. private events are great. If you can get in on that scene, it sounds like it's something you've been really successful at. And, yeah, that definitely falls under the category of, you know, live performances, putting yourself out there creating your own database of contacts, if you don't have a booking agent. I mean, there's, there's so much you can do on your own and just, you know, word of mouth to is really important, like who, you know, like, getting on that wedding gig scene getting on that private, private, private event scene. corporate gigs can be great as well. But that's, you know, as you know, you have to be very proactive and and put yourself out there in that space. Yeah, for sure. That's kind of like, in general, as a musician, and even as an artist manager, you have to be proactive, you have to be entrepreneurial about that. How did you learn those skills? Because those aren't really what they teach you in school, you kind of have to learn those on the job in a way. Yeah, that's a great question. Again, it's it's definitely putting putting yourself out there. I just recorded a podcast episode with Brian Viglione, from the Dresden Dolls who's played in the violent femmes and Nine Inch Nails. And that was kind of the subtext of that episode, because it was called How To Be A Session Musician. That was a request from a listener who also didn't write. Um, so yeah, it's really putting yourself out there. And, um, you know, just saying yes to everything within ethical reason. And I met the Dresden Dolls when they played at my university, and they were a local bands on the rise. And so naively, at first I thought, like, oh, they don't, you know, they're doing fine. They probably don't need anything. But I introduced myself to Amanda Palmer at that show. And I also introduced myself professionally, which she said, You know, I said, I, I'm studying music business, I intern here, I intern there, let me know if you ever need help with anything. And Amanda's like, can you come over tomorrow, because a local band on the rise has so much to do. So I just really immersed myself in that world in that band, and I certainly would never say I was the third member of that band, but definitely functioning with me was a lot easier than functioning without me. So we all kind of grew up professionally. You know, like, the first tour I ever tour managed, was self booked, but they were going to South by Southwest and I was super excited about that. But the self book shows were amazing. You know, like, I was just telling someone yesterday, I'll never forget looking at that tour routing, and seeing like big bills barbecue in Carbondale, Illinois and Geno's Sports Bar in Boone, North Carolina and I kind of made fun of those in my head. And then in reality, those ended up being to the best shows of the tour like they were totally sold out. They were in college towns and for example, the the Geno sportsbar one and Boone, North Carolina is where Appalachian State University is and they're not allowed or I'm sure this has changed because this was a million years ago, but at the time they weren't allowed to book artists on campus. So this sportsbar let them book it. So it was just like, packed with super passionate college kids. Um, but by the time I graduated, you know, I didn't walk in my graduation ceremony because we were at Coachella that day starting a three continent tour with Nine Inch Nails. So that was over a three year timespan. So like I said, I just said yes to everything, immerse myself in that band. And we all grew up together professionally, really figuring it out as we went. So just putting yourself out there. Like I said, you're, you're not necessarily going to learn this stuff in the classroom. But what I do love about, you know, formal education programs is, you know, going out into the field, and then bringing it back into the classroom and talking to your classmates and educators and professors about what works, what doesn't work, what sucks, what's awesome, and really learning and growing together. Yeah, for sure. Oh, that's awesome. So what are you up to these days? Currently, we are in the booking process of I voted festival 2022. We just reached out to our alumni artists this week. Um, I guess I probably shouldn't get too into the weeds on that, because we haven't made our first announcement yet. But we're assembling our booking team. And we are going to be reaching out to the top streaming artists in 11 key states for this election. And then, you know, following up with some of our headliners, and making some pretty big announcements around our 2022 plans. So that's always my focus. in election years. We're developing a hashtag I voted podcast as well, which I'm super excited about. And at some point, I need to work on the next edition of 'How To Build A Sustainable Music Career And Collect All Revenue Streams'. So those are those are my priorities for for 2022. Awesome. Well, if you ever need any insight in the private events scene, let me know. What are some key pieces of advice that you would give to gigging musicians aside from get your art together? Like once they have their art together? What's next? Okay, so I also took notes on this from the touring chapter in my book, which not to sound totally arrogant, I actually think that's like the best chapter in the book. And I've received really positive feedback on every other chapter, but have not heard from anyone on this because it came out in March 2020. So nobody's really been playing like, so maybe this chapter sucks, but I think it's, I think it's really good. So I wrote down, like, the sub headings for that, um, kind of similar to chapter one, practice makes perfect, right? So you have to rehearse, you have to practice. Um, you know, I'm, you know, next I'm going to talk about, like, you know, a hometown show, booking a show, things like that. But before your big show, you know, like, play some open mics, like play under a pseudonym. So you're not spreading yourself, you know, spreading out your name too much. And you can drive traffic towards that big hometown show. There are amazingly, you know, stories about labels going after artists, and I mean, even even, even now, like, you know, there can be bidding wars or whatever. And then, you know, that artist plays South by Southwest or whatever. And it the label realizes, like, oh, my gosh, they're not that good live, you know, these recordings are amazing. So that's why you really have to practice. You really have to rehearse. Um, when I was an intern, we were interviewing Michael Stipe, from REM. And again, this was a long time ago, and this was when the strokes were breaking, which is still like, kind of before, you know, web 2.0 And how fast things move now. But Michael Stipe was asked, you know, what do you think about something like the strokes were like, maybe they have one song and then, you know, get big really fast. And he was like, I don't envy them. Because REM was able to play two bars, you know, played a no one in bars for years in the 80s. And that's how we got really good. You know, that's how we became the live unit that we are. So I know, not everyone has, you know, the luxury of those years, but there's, there's a lot of lessons in that. So, practice rehearse, um, you know, I have a lot of information in the book and the podcasts on how to book a show a lot. A lot of times people don't know that terminology or that language or don't know what to say, to a venue, you know, the whole point of your email to a venue is for it to get read. So keep it short. You know, tell them how many people you know, assuming it's a ticketed event not a private event. Tell tell them how many people you know you can realistically draw and don't send it on a Saturday night or a weekend or between Christmas and New Year's um Yeah, so there's there's basics on booking a show one on one in there and then you know, once you have you know, that hometown show that you're focused on promoting promote it, you know, promote it to your email list your text message club, promoted on social media, tag, the venue tag the other artists so many artists don't do that. And, you know, like I already Remember, I was going to a show once. And again, I'm a pretty inherent marketer. And so I tweeted, like, helped us out the band, they won't care, like going to see the big sleep at pianos, you know, like, whatever and piano, you know, pianos is a venue in New York like retweets my tweet to their whatever, 50,000 followers and it's like, who cares about me? Why isn't the band tagging them? You know, so these venues have large followings. And not only do you want to get that extra promotion, but like it shows them that you're putting the effort in, which really goes a long way with with venues and promoters. When you have that hometown show booked, you can ask the venue slash promoter, if they have a press list, they'd be willing to share with you and if and if not, if they're not willing to share it, if you could draft a press release, that they could service if they don't want to share those contacts. You could also put your fans to work for you. You know, you can do this on a tour or an individual show. You know, put up the ticket link and say retweet that you know anyone who retweets This is entered in a drawing for free tickets or a meet and greet or something special. street teams are still really effective. People tend to know this, you know, like people know if their city is an effective Street Team city. So, you know, you can arm your fans with, you know, posters and flyers, and they can take photos of hanging them up around town and they can get on the guest list. Don't Don't Don't neglect merch. You know, I heard this from a few musicians lately who are really good at merch. And their hearts are broken when they go see an amazing artist. And there's just like nothing, you know, and even within merch like Get smart, get creative. Don't just like press T shirts, because that's what you think you're supposed to do. You know, there's an artist we work with named Julia Nunes, who remember one of her last in person shows before the show, she was making flower crowns for her and her bands, and then made like 20 More that she sold at the merch table for a pretty high price point. Because who doesn't want the flower crowns, you know that, or the flower crown that the artist is wearing, um, posters are really cheap to press up, you know, if you're dying for a physical good, they can be like pennies, depress and you can charge more if you ought, I mean, this is a little more online, but charge more if you autograph charge even more, if you personally autograph them. You know, and then once you have your draw kind of established, and you've had that successful hometown show, you can start setting up gigs swaps, you know, like, if you're based in Milwaukee, you can reach out to artists and Minneapolis, Chicago, you know, and regional cities and say, Hey, I'd love for you to open, you know, my next hometown show, I'd love to open for you. I really encourage artists to look at data as well, when you know, instead of just being like, Okay, I found a band in Portland great, you know, um, I really like chart metric, you can literally take a look at the top streaming acts from each city. And it's, you know, that data is amazing, because that's how we booked I voted festival and I started with Wisconsin. And we had, like, basically, when I looked at the data for what people are listening to in Wisconsin, as far as artists from Wisconsin, there were there were artists, I'd never heard of that were at the top. And there were artists I'd heard of that no one's listening to. And that's, that is a that happens all the time. Where I feel like there are two music industries, there's like what we're talking about. And then there's what people are actually listening to. Sometimes it's the same thing, but very often it's not. And like a quick example, my parents go to Irish fest every year in Milwaukee, and they come back and they're like, We love the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And I'm like, Okay, and so I wasn't terribly surprised when they are one of the most listened to acts in Wisconsin, these guys from Scotland with bagpipes doing covers just like kill it at festivals and, and people love it. And so we booked them and I voted festival. And I had multiple, you know, colleagues say to me, like there's a typo on your website. I'm like, Nope, it's really the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And I know this is a very small sample size, but like my mom's like, I keep running into people and they can't believe the Red Hot Chili Peppers are playing your events now are the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Like, you know, the Milwaukee Journal is top actor watch it South by Southwest No, because they're not even playing South by you know, so it's just pay attention. Pay attention to metrics and pay attention to metrics for yourself. So, you know, when you're all motivated to book, your first national tour, don't just blindly book cities and hope that people show up. Look at where your actual fans are. I mean, we do that all the time. Like, um, you know, I had an artist who traditionally did well at Nashville and London. Those are Obviously very traditional music industry markets. But I saw that Sao Paulo was his top city. So the agent booked a tour in Brazil, it was really successful. And all of that info is available, like on your social media metrics on your Spotify metrics so that that information is crucial. And then same with international, I'll give an example of image and actually, her it's very similar to what I just said. But her manager notice that Jakarta was the number one country for her on Facebook. And that's not a country that was a city outperforming other countries. And he said to the booking agent, you know, can you check out what's going on in Indonesia, and the agent was like, oh, there's no music industry there don't even bother. He's like, can you just check, and she came back with a slew of six figure offers. And, you know, we never would have known that without looking at the actual metrics. Instead of like I said, just being like, let's play wanted it and let's play LA or whatever. So it's like, go to where your fans are, those metrics are really powerful. Um, obviously, webcasting is huge now have a strategy behind that, you know, you can pop up on Instagram Live sometimes, but have it lead towards something again, Julia Nunes is an artist that we work with who does does that really well. You know, she's been putting together a big blowout webcast where she'll have an exclusive piece of merch only available at that show, or at that webcast. And knowing her it'll be some sort of inside joke with the audience. And, and she's also planning a big announcement for that show, right? So have a strategy behind your webcast, you can also do VIP stuff at webcasts, you know, you can do a higher ticket price and say, I'm just gonna have 10 people or 15 people or whatever. And I'm, if you're comfortable with that, you know, if you're going to take, you know, you could take requests, you could do a q&a, and make it a more intimate experience. I get asked all the time how to get a booking agent. booking agents are very spreadsheet numbers oriented people, even before the pandemic, there were a lot of agencies dropping the love acts if they didn't sell enough tickets, and now it's just the wild wild west as far as booking agencies go. So what I'm trying to say is like, even if you sell 300 500, you know, hard tickets in Milwaukee, and that's your hometown. Agents expect that. So they're gonna say, what is your draw in Minneapolis? What is your draw in Chicago? You know, they want to see what's going on regionally, you could impress them with metrics, I don't think enough agents and booking agencies paid pay attention to metrics, but um, yeah, they're gonna want to see, they're gonna expect strong numbers in your hometown. So they want to see what's going on, at least regionally, if not nationally, and a lot of times people think, Oh, well, I want a booking agent, because that's what's gonna get me a support slot. And, you know, I would say 95% of opening acts are chosen by the artists they are opening for it is not the booking agent, it is not the manager isn't it's not the industry person, we want to hang out with and tour with people that we like. So those are the you know, so So musicians make those decisions. So again, put yourself out there build genuine relationships. And that's how you're going to get those those opening slots, although, side note on that, and, um, you know, I love the Cactus Club. So I don't want to take anything away from that. But there's an artist I know, that sold out the Cactus Club and said to me, like, Well, how do I open you know, for national acts that are coming through and playing the paps and stuff and I was like, well, you should book your next show at collectivo backroom because that's also a PAP seat or group room, and then they're gonna see that you draw on a hard ticket, and then keep you in mind. For larger acts. They're not necessarily scanning like what Cactus Club or what another room is doing. They're paying attention, you know, to their own metric, to their own metrics. Um, and then Yeah, as far as like, um, you know, beyond that, when you're touring is growing, as far as maximizing profits go. The Dresden Dolls actually did the, I think, did this really well. I mean, it's a little easier because they're a duo. But um, you know, if if you are growing on the road and having success, as you make more money, you don't necessarily need every bell and whistle and, and Daris. You know, I mean, this is all due respect and empathy, but you don't need like every crew member in the world. Like I remember, we were in Australia, and talking to Ben Folds, because he was touring there also, and I don't remember how this conversation came up. But Ben said, because you know, this was a long time ago. I haven't tour manager in a long time, like tour buses used to be $1,000 a day. It's probably more than that now, and it depends on how nice the buses and so Ben was talking about how he was handed to tour but to two different tour budgets for the same tour. One with a bus, one and a van and In the van, he was coming home with like, an extra $100,000 Just because of that, that one difference, and he's like, all roll up to Letterman and a van. That's cool. You know, so why not really about like, I mean, you know, growth and making more money is super important. But as you do that you don't necessarily need a tech for every instrument. And, you know, if it's good enough for Ben Folds, it's good enough for the rest of us. And like I said, you can do VIP packages. Of course, in person, I don't think enough artists take advantage of recording their shows and doing things with that content. That was something in the pre digital era, musicians were blocked from doing if they were signed to a label, and I I understand the hesitancy around it, we're all perfectionist and hard on ourselves. But um, you know, the jam community does that really well, you know, puts up tours for donation, or you can buy the whole tour. And, you know, just think about being a fan. And that's fun to hear, like they said, Milwaukee or they played this or they said this or whatever. So that's a that's a cool momento from fans. And then again, the CliffsNotes version of the book is just data, your own data collection and treating yourself like a tech company. So don't forget to have an email list have text message club collection at your shows, you know, that should be I mean, like, I feel kind of gross saying this, but like that should be as important as your gear, you know, like, it should be easy, it should be part of the plan. And then don't forget to add those to your database. So that's that's the that's the overall view of that chapter that like nobody's read, because nobody's been touring. But wow, finally, starting to change. Yeah, well, Emily, that is incredible. Like, coming from a very different background and approach like, that is a huge window into this whole world that it is a world but the commonality between the musicians that you work with, and the musicians that I work with is we all treat what we do as a business. And it's data driven. And we understand that we have to market what we do, including things like collecting contact info at wherever we go and recording our shows, making offers to people all the time. There's a lot of commonality to it, but just very different paths to go about it. So I really appreciate you bringing that perspective to our show. 100% So we're at the end of our episode, and I wanted to give you the opportunity, How could our listeners connect with you further? Sure, I'm @EMwizzle on Twitter, Instagram, and I guess on Facebook, um, so yeah, my books are out the podcast is out, you know, tune into I Voted Festival that'll be on November 8, you know, 2022 Election Day, please register to vote. Take a selfie from outside your polling place or with your blank and unmarked ballot and, you know, our 2020 edition had, you know, Billy Eilish Trey Anastasio living color, like the list just went on and on. So if you want to tune in to some amazing artists on election night, get that selfie from outside your polling place. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and to our listeners. Thanks so much for joining us on another episode of The Gigging Musician Podcast. Always remember you are just one gig away.