In this episode, Jared sat down with touring Broadway musician Keaton Viavattine. They chat about what it takes to get on Broadway, work ethic, the value of great teachers, and more.
Hey gigging musicians. It's Jared Judge. Welcome back to The gigging musician podcast. Today I am so excited. We are privileged to have my good friend and professional musician Keaton Viavattine with us. Keaton Viavattine is a touring Broadway musician. He is performed as the trumpet player for the "SpongeBob The Musical" tour, "The King And I" tour and has a couple other things on the schedule that he can't quite announce yet. But Keaton, welcome. And thank you so much for being a part of the gigging musician podcast. Yeah, thank you, Jared. It's good to be here. Awesome. So you and I had a great time in college together, I had the privilege of going to music school with Keaton, briefly, but we had a great time there. And we also attempted to start a jazz fusion cover band at one point. But I want to hear from your perspective and start as early as you'd like, what is your musical background? Whoo, okay. Um, well, I am primarily a classical trumpet player by training. That was primarily when I was doing throughout undergrad. But while I was there, I was just doing a bit of everything and found myself doing a lot of jazz and studio orchestra. And outside of school, I was doing top 40 cover bands and Latin bands and doing as much theater as possible. So you know, that's kind of what I was up to is just as a bit of everything. But yeah, my training is in classical trumpet. Awesome. And how did you get into trumpet in the first place? Well, from a musical family, so my mom and dad are both music teachers. And so I started very young. And I think I picked the two because it's the loudest one. And that just felt like a good fit. And to this day, it still still works for me in that same way. So I think just being, you know, wanting, wanting a little bit more of the to be the center of attention in my very musical family. So I needed to, you know, make my mark. So that's awesome. No traffic came to be fantastic. And you just listed off a large list of different kinds of opportunities. I guess, why did you want to do all of those? That's, that's a good question. I think when I when I started school, I was really drawn to orchestral music. And so I was I was enjoying that. But throughout high school, even I was playing for weddings. You know, my mom being a music director at a church and an organist by trade. So I had started, I had started gigging very young, and had just kind of that, that bug when I was young, I watched my dad go out to, you know, jazz clubs and play and, and I, you know, was kind of too young to understand what that meant. But I just knew that my parents being freelancers was just kind of the kind of the bag for me that I was going to be doing that. And so that just made sense to me while I was in school, and I know a lot of my classmates were doing a lot of orchestra stuff. And it just seemed almost by happenstance that I was doing almost everything but orchestra at the time, which was, you know, kind of my early days was was involved in that. And yeah, I think I just had so many musical influences that were outside of classical that even though my, my heart and my brain, were really interested in orchestra, just everything else in my life was encouraging me to do everything else. Yeah, that's interesting. So at what point did you did you finally get to do orchestral playing? Well, that's a good question. I think, you know, when I went back for grad school, that's when I decided, you know, like, I really, really want to do some orchestral music. Finally, you know, it just it the way it goes with with undergrad. And you know, it's chamber music and solo stuff. And obviously, in many different fields, by the time you go to grad school, that's your time to specialize. And my attempt at specializing in orchestra music was grad school. And I also failed at that, seeing as I did, probably the least orchestra that I ever did in grad school, but that was the aim that I was, you know, that's the goal. Yeah, for sure. I want to dig into that a little bit later. But you mentioned you went to undergrad and then grad school. I know that you went to Eastman School of Music, which is widely regarded as one of the top music schools in the country, if not the world for music. How did that come to be? Well, that's a good question. I'm from Rochester, New York, which is a music town always has been Rochester, you know, used to be a really, really cool place and had world renowned jazz festivals. And it was just a cultural institution, of course having the George Eastman you know, house with the home home of Kodak film, you know, super famous and Eastern theater being what it was was originally designed as a silent movie. Hall, which is kind of ironic. But of course, was was lent you know, it was designed as it is for to have the acoustical properties to have a, you know, live orchestra accompanying the films, of course. And so then the school was was made and eastland was really cutting edge in a lot of the things that was doing some of the first jazz instruction at the collegiate level when I'm here, and it was host to many famous people. So what I'm kind of getting at is Rochester was always, you know, a really big deal. And so for my parents growing up here, I heard of, you know, my grandparents, and they were friends with, you know, Chuck, man, Joan, and Steve Gadd. And all these characters that were around this area. And so I, I just kind of grew up with that. And, and that's, that's the culture here is just a lot of music going on here. And so, when I was in high school, going to ecpms, to community school at at Eastman, it was just a very smooth transition from hearing and seeing this Rochester music scene, and then, you know, having this desire to, you know, study at a higher level, within that tradition. So I had been hearing all these role models of mine, being Eastman people, and I thought to myself, I, I don't really need to go any further than 15 minutes from where I grew up to where I want to go to school. Wow, that's awesome. Did you actually apply anywhere else? I, you know, I did, my mom really wanted me to do that. But I was, I don't know why I said was, I am a pretty stubborn person. And so I had my mind made up very, very young that I wanted to do this. In fact, I told my second grade teacher that I didn't need to do my homework, because I would be going to music school at the Eastman School. So you having no idea that how rigorous the academic requirements actually are. But second grade me was overly confident about that. And but it worked out. I was right. I was right about that. Yeah. So yeah. And like you said, Nothing much has changed since then. Right? No, of course not. You guys still didn't really work. But fair enough. Awesome. So you went to Eastman, and you studied with some really amazing and internationally renowned people, one of whom is Mark scattered? Yeah. So what was it like being in a band conducted by Mark scattered? That's a great question. Doctor scattered a, I just, you know, you come across these people. Very rarely, I have at least, who just like, it's, it's hard to even describe the level of respect and command that, you know, the respect that I had for his ability to command an ensemble and just, you know, he, he just knew the music to a level that I've not really encountered much. And especially at that point in my life, working with somebody as prolific as, as he is, really changed my life. I remember just waiting all week to go to rehearsal. And it was like, the highlight of my entire time there. Of course, working with my studio teacher was was incredibly important. But I think like, the thing that I looked forward to the most was playing in the east and one ensemble. And, you know, he kind of told us that that would happen. He's like, you know, look around, this is going to be one of the most special ensembles that you have ever played it. And I can say for certain that these moon ensemble is is just that some of some of the most incredible musical moments happened with Dr. Scattered a. Wow, that sounds like an incredible experience. Did it motivate you to work harder in the practice room? Yeah, absolutely. I think his the way he would command that ensemble, that's that's the word I'll use is he just creating this environment where where myself and of course, all my my colleagues, all my peers at school, we didn't really, you know, have any other choice. It was it was a little bit like, like boot camp just in the way you don't you don't really think about not doing what you're, you know, drill sergeant says, You're just you just do it. And you know, that's what's best for you. And that's that's kind of what we all felt is he would just say, this is what he wanted, what we should be doing. And that's what we did. And you know, we would would talk about part assignments at dinner and we would be texting all night about sectionals and getting together and how's this going for you and what can I do to make this better? And it was just an expectation that the community of students there were going to come together and fulfill this mission in this legacy, honestly, of being in this ensemble. And when we were young, especially looking up to the the upperclassmen who would really just set the tone literally, of what we're supposed to be doing and it was it kind of find it easy to fall in line because it was like this, this This rushing, you know, river where like, you just get in it and jump in and just go with it or you're gonna get lost and getting lost wasn't even a choice. So it was just like, just get right in, here we go. Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like the expectation was set high both from a musical perspective and a work ethic perspective. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, you know, with everyone, everyone told me that I would learn as much or more from my peers than I would from my professors. And I, I've been thinking about that a lot with me, because I completely agree. But when I was younger, I just kind of assumed that meant, like, theoretical knowledge, like I would learn something that's kind of like the way you know, we think about like, that word is like, there's like a piece of knowledge, but I actually don't really think it is as much that and in the case of my peers, it was more just like through osmosis, just being around those people. It just kind of like, crept in, into my being like, the fibers of who I am, and like, kind of a hippie dippie way, but it's true. I think I learned more about like, Oh, you you know, like, what kind of trill to put in like Baroque music like that. I learned that from my professors. And I certainly did learn of course, some of this like osmosis stuff. But it was really more from my peers of just like, how you how you, like, get ready for rehearsal, or how you like, unpack your instrument, all of these things. I just, I still feel are inside me from you know, little things that I've picked up along the way? Well, that is a compelling case for in person learning, which I know it's been difficult for many musicians during COVID. Mm hmm. That's awesome. So you like to Eastman enough to go back and get a second degree from there. But in the meantime, you and I met at University of Wisconsin Milwaukee for a couple semesters. That's true. So after you're in somewhere in the middle of your second degree, you I start to hear this amazing, like rumblings of a rumor about you that you get asked to go on a Broadway tour. So I'm curious. Tell us about that. What is your position? And how did you land that that job? Yeah, that's kind of a roundabout story, but a fun one for sure that so that was that was leading into my first real I guess I would say like professional obligation that was of any length was going on tour with the second national tour of the King and I, Rodgers and Hammerstein and how that came to be, like I said, a little roundabout, but one of my best friends. Her name is Tessa and we were, you know, frenemies. in fourth grade, we were like all County, enemies, like who's gonna get you know, whatever chair in whatever and, and then all of a sudden, we started school at at Eastman. And she, you know, she was a freshman, she ended up transferring over to Curtis, fantastic trumpet player. And so she got this opportunity through someone she knew at Curtis to do this opera festival called Music Academy International, which takes place in mehsana, Italy. And I didn't really know anything about it. Actually, I was I was home ready to start school right before I, you know, started grad school. I was, you know, hanging out my parents house and I get this call from Tessa. She's like, Hey, what are you doing? Right now? Like, nothing. She's like, what are you doing for the next month? It was like also nothing. If it wasn't, it was not very excited as a person. And she said, Well, I just got this call to do this as well. I can't do it. Are you interested in I was like, Okay, sure. What's it about? She's like, I don't know. But it's in Italy. And I was like, done. I don't care anything else about him. And so I get on this flight. And I remember being really sick. Back when it was like, fine to fly when you were sick, you know, back in that day? Yeah. COVID wouldn't these days. So I'm like, I'm like really delirious. I get off this flight. And I have not a clue where I am. I'm like, I'm like traveling by myself, which I had done a little bit of but you know, especially before too, right. I really didn't know much. I was pretty, pretty unaware. And we take this long bus trip all the way through the Dolomites. And you know, the mountain range and we're just like, going further and further and further. I don't know anyone on the bus and all of a sudden we get to this like, teeny, tiny, tiny, tiny town. And we get off the bus. They're like you're here. I was like this. This can't be it. We get off the bus and I see this. The guy who's like hosting me in his house speaks no know English to the point where my Italian is better than his English, which is she's like frightening because I know, you know, shockingly little. And so I get to the house and everything and one of the first friends that I meet there, her name is Deb Deb Moyer. She just got off tour with beauty in the beast. And so we were fast friends. And, you know, we did this whole festival and at the end, she had asked me like, Hey, you know, are you interested in touring? I was like, of course. Yeah. And she's like, okay, I'll put your your, you know, hat in the ring. said okay, great. You know, we went home said our goodbyes. Several months later, you know, four or five months, I'm sitting in my room. I just, you know, done a in grad school at this point. I took a nap. Which is weird because at this point, pre COVID I'd taken like four naps in my life. You know, past like being a toddler. I don't know how many naps I took as a toddler. But as an adult. I'm just not a napper. Now. I am COVID COVID. Keaton's a huge napper. We love naps here. But then I was like, not a nap. I wake up from this thing. Again, delirious. I don't know why it's so much of the story is being delirious. But I wake up from this nap. And I have a I have an email asking if I want to go on a tour of the King and I and I was like, stunned, I totally, like, not forgotten. But I'd like not, I wasn't very hopeful that this would, you know, really materialize into anything. And so I got this call. And I was like, Oh, my God changed my life. I knew right in that moment that it would be a life changing email opportunity for me. And so of course, I said yes. And rest history went on tour. And, you know, that was that was how that happened. So it was a really, really unexpected way to get a job. Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, had you not gone to Italy, you wouldn't be a touring musician. Mm hmm. And it was it was interesting that it was opera. Yeah, that ended up getting me a musical theater job. What operas did you play? At that festival? We did some Magic Flute. And we did some down. Giovani classic. A lot of Mozart, a lot of Mozart, a lot of Mozart, but it was it was great. It was a great time. For sure. So you had not met Deb before this festival? Am I saying her name right is a Deborah Deborah? Deborah either? Yeah, bro. Okay, pretty, pretty chill. Awesome. So did Deborah tell you that she was affiliated with this touring company. She had really, she had mentioned because at the time she was she was a long term sub aanbieding the beats and so her her own story, which I think is fascinating. I love asking my peers like what their origin story is, because it's it, it kind of boils down to the same thing. But the nuances are always really interesting. You know, obviously, some, somewhere Some want along the lines asked you to tour obviously. But I think for Deb, it was interesting that she was a long term sub and kind of the deal were like, not to, like, tell too much of her story. But like, I think it was like, you know, are you free, like right now to go on a long term sub position. And like that, that's kind of how it goes sometimes, especially for like a sub who gets hired is for some reason, it's like a sudden vacancy. And like, are you you know, so that's how she was involved with it. And I remember her telling me and I was like, enamored with this concept of being on tour. Prior to that, I think it was like, for me, and for a lot of people, it's like kind of a mythical. You know, being it's not real. It's just in theory. Right. And so I remember even even hearing it from her I, I can I know how other people feel? Because that's exactly how I felt at the time. I assume. People are like, I was super interested. I can say that, for sure. I thought that was like the craziest thing in the world. That's she got to do that for a living. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it is a very coveted position. You know, everybody wants to be a Broadway musician. And even if they don't they still revere Broadway musicians? I know. I do. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you got extremely lucky. And I know many musicians don't. Is there something about your journey that you feel aside from just being in the right place at the right time? That made that easier to get that job? I do. I do. I think I'll relate it back to what I was saying about how I was in school, trying to do something and just everything in the world playing wise was was encouraging me to do everything else, as I was every single gig that I got was not in the orchestra. And so I think for me, it was really like being willing to follow the opportunities and and trying my best to be as ready as possible. And I think, you know, something that I learned honestly, from my family, young, very young was like, this idea of like, it doesn't matter if it's like a polka gig for two people. Or Carnegie Hall or anything in between, or whatever you play your heart out. And whenever you get, you know, whenever you're holding your instrument, that's your best effort all the way back to like, you know, these concepts that we were taught very, very young about, like, you know, just do your best. That's it. And I think I think that was something that quite honestly, I didn't really see. I think that's something that separated me. Honestly, I don't really talk much about like, my talent level. I don't really think anything like that. But I think that I, I try my hardest I play to the best of my ability, no matter what. Yeah, and I heard that's what led led me to be doing all of these different things. You know, I played on like, Christian rock albums, and indie cover bands and 60s, girl band groups, and, and polka and disco and funk bands and all that stuff. In addition to all of the Mahler, and Mozart and Ellington, and all that stuff, which we you know, most people in music school are, like, very ready to take very seriously. But oddly enough, I think is all the other stuff that put me in a position to, to tour. Wow. That's incredible. Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So now that you got the job? Mm hmm. What What was it like, getting ready to go on your first tour? And then what was tore? Like? Yeah, well, getting ready was kind of underwhelming until it wasn't, I was used to being a student, where everything is on a scale that's like, so the timeline is so much longer than anything that I've experienced professionally, you know, for like, even with these one ensemble, which, relatively speaking, I remember that was like a point of pride, which is how fast we would get music ready, and how few rehearsals just because of like the ultimate levels of focus that Dr. scattery just, you know, expected and doing really difficult music. And, you know, that was kind of that experience of like doing schwertner for rehearsals. And then all of a sudden, here I am ready for my first gig, which I know was months and months in advance. And like, I didn't really hear anything for a long time. Like I that my name was on the line, I knew I was going. But it's just the you know, I didn't get my book until maybe a couple days before I left I remember it was like overnight, it maybe even fast. I don't know what's faster than overnight, it like lightspeed like personally delivered to my apartment, because that's just how it goes. Like, we're, by the time the book has come to me, the musician it's gone through, like, I don't know how many people's hands of editors and alterations and oh, we're doing it down a step. And we're doing this and blah, blah, blah. So by the time it gets to me, it's really a final book, which is very cool. I had done like a lot of more like regional theater, or even High School productions, where like, we're making alterations at the time. So for me to receive a final product that in and of itself was like, kind of a clue to me, like, oh, people have already done all of the other the dozens of jobs that go into putting on a production before me, the performer is even like touching this book, which says I think that I like are really appreciated that but what that means is that it's just by nature very late when I would like actually end up receiving this book. So I remember being like, very just like on edge about that experience. And then from then it just it really like Excel, I guess I would call that the beginning of like getting ready because I didn't even really have the book I was just like listening to the soundtrack. I remember I had it like unrepeated Ted Sterling's recording of it, and which is good and bad because I felt like I had it so in my head and you know, just human beings we were like really good at that first thing and anything after that is like, disregarded forever. So it's kind of strange, despite doing the show like 150 times, I still actually have the recording in my head more. Oh, wow. So for certain things for certain things that were like, like substantially different I kind of like still remember it, like the way from the recording, which is just funny. I think like going into subsequent shows I would probably be a little bit more careful about doing that. But anyway, going back to getting ready for King and I was just like on repeat. I remember getting to tour and it was it was right after the hurricane had went through Wilmington, North Carolina where we were attacking. I remember getting to this hotel and it was just, you know very, it was in shambles, totally disheveled the entire town, like trees all over the road and like almost to the point where I didn't feel safe. Just like the I conditions, the weather conditions were like kind of crazy. And I just had this moment like, Well, I'm not I'm not in Rochester, I'm very far away from home. And I had like, gotten rid of all my possessions. I think that was like, maybe even a bigger part of like, what it's like to go on tour is, is, you know, what do you do with your stuff? And you don't bring that much stuff? Think about like going on vacation? And like having a 50 pound suitcase? That's it. That's your life? That's like the whole thing. For months on it? Yes. Yeah, for months. And so then like everything else that you own, you either have to get rid of, or store and so for me, I was just leaving my like, little college apartment with my college furniture, which had been, you know, not even secondhand, probably, like, 20th hand, everything was falling apart. So I just put it all by the side of the road and, and left. And so I think this, this part of the experience was actually really important. Because, you know, it dawned on me, like in this moment, like, Oh, my God, I, this is it. This is now my life. Like, yeah, this is now my entire life. And very quickly, I made some great friends, like immediately, and I felt very safe and comfortable, right when I like, got there. But I remember just even even the moments like walking into the hotel for the first time it kind of, I guess it hit me what the ramifications for what? What tour was really going to be like, that's when it hit me. Yeah, that's incredible. So, eventually, like you mentioned, you did tech for a while, were there musical rehearsals prior to tech? Yeah. So when we got to Wilmington, by that time, the the crew and the cast had already been together for about a month in New York rehearsing. And then they had come down to Wilmington, which is where we would have tech and previews. So by the time the orchestra got there, like I said, it was, you know, we were the last people to show up. So how did how it ended up working on King and I Elise was we had two rehearsals each were four hours, and one per act. And so really, I mean, that's like an hour and a half worth of music, it's enough time for like, basically running everything twice. And then like some talking in there. So that being said, by the time we actually got, you know, plugged into the full cast experience, a lot of that music, we had only played like, like literally two times. So just coming going back to that point of like, what, what the timeline is, was so accelerated from anything that I was really used to, but I found it comfortable, it was just unusual. So I really liked that I really liked the pace of it. And I just, I think like being a very high energy person like on the inside, I don't know if it comes across as much like in this format, but like as a person I feel very high energy and just like turn it down on the outside. But on the inside I I found this very like pleasing to Me. And and like comfortable was the pace of everything around me there was just like, you look to your left, and they're they're like nailing something and gluing and, and, you know, people are dancing and warming up and doing splits all around you and like, death drops and, and it's just like, everyone is so loud. And like, so energetic. And I loved it. I just I absolutely loved. I remember being there. And I remember like that feeling of like, Oh my god, I'm like, away from home, I'm out of my element was very easily, you know, quenched by being around like, Oh, these are my people. These are people who like get excited about like, really, really nitty gritty details of their work and just being around other theater people theater theater enjoyers. And I remember being really excited about that, for sure. And what did it feel like after you performed the show for the first time for a live audience? Oh, that's a good question. I remember it was it was very different because like previews aren't as well attended. So that was the other thing it was like putting, going going back to like, the point I had about like, it doesn't matter how, you know, inconsequential the performance may seem you play your heart out. I remember that actually was like a huge part of playing previews and playing tech that like you do this thing. And you're like huffing and puffing and like, you know, sweaty like proverbially and also literally, and and you're just like wow, I climbed this mountain and then there's like four people in the audience clapping because they were just like invited to the preview. And it was like a very different experience for sure. I'm not like I'm not used to playing for four people. There was definitely some like that, you know, Wind Ensemble concerts that happened in a snowstorm in It's snowy Rochester where no one came. So like, I'm used to that for sure. But like that just the production level, it felt like there should be a lot of people. So I remember like, that idea really kind of dawned on me very early that like the, the audience is really not much to do with it. For me, it's really like me. And then like the the other people in the orchestra and the people on stage in like that kind of hierarchy of like, what I feel most connected to in the audience is very, very late. And so to kind of go back to your question of like, how I felt I felt personally very excited and like, amused, and then also, like, kind of confused at the Sure. Just the overall atmosphere of like putting on a production that level. Awesome. It's definitely not the answer I expected. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's one thing I like about you is like, you don't, you don't necessarily play for others, although you do. But like, a lot of the times, it's just about you and being the person that you are. And that will naturally yield a high level performance. I think I think so I think that's a, you know, I do really, really like the end result for the audience. I do. But it's almost like a byproduct for me of putting in, you know, as much effort as I do. It's really, it's really to make the best product possible. And I hope people like that. Yeah, for sure. So, this interview went a lot longer than I planned for. So you, thanks for such a great interview so far. Yeah, I want to I would just kind of transition quickly to your second tour. So tell us about the second tour and its journey, because I know that it wasn't as smooth as the first. Yeah, so SpongeBob once I had finished King, and I, I, you know, knew I would be going on SpongeBob the musical, which is a very different experience, because it was on Broadway's, you know, the year prior. So what that means is that the entire creative team and all the original directors and all those people that were involved in the original creation, even not not only just the day to day operations, but the actual creation of the show from its infancy, even, like, you know, pitching this to investors, like the very first people to be involved were in the room when we were rehearsing. And so that meant, you know, it was like their baby, a lot more than doing King and I, for Rodgers and Hammerstein. And I think that was just a really interesting example of like, you know, being I don't want to say thrown to the wolves, because that implies a negative thing. But like, it was just being around people that like, I was totally unaware of, like how this process works. And I felt like very out of my element, being around this level of like, genius, I guess, just this this level of like, you know, ability, tons of creative energy and abilities. Yes. And so I had certainly been around that in a musical context directly like for like instrumentals, but it being around people who care to that level, the doctor scattered a lot of wigs. I had not been around that yet. And so it was like, everywhere I turned, there was a good another Tony, winner, like another critically acclaimed person and their work specifically on this show. And so that was like, yeah, that was really cool. And I remember like, same kind of experience for me, you know, just getting there and like, it was all very, like, go go go, you know, very finite amount of time to get this ready. And so my experience with that was very similar, but just the show, as a concept was very different. And I remember getting, like, reinvigorated about doing theater, in its current form, rather than a classics. Shell. So I really enjoyed that. That part of it doing something really, you know, contemporary, and current. Awesome. And you also got written into the show, as an actor. Tell me about that story. Yeah, yeah. So we were we were doing a meet and greet for you know, all the actors. And then I remember showing up and Tina Landau, the director, just kind of like to my Look, I guess and and said, that looks like a pirate and that I should be in the show a little bit. So I had a little bit of a feature with the trombone as john Dowd. And we had a little bit of a bit where we walk out at intermission and do like a little comedic thing and walk back so it was fun. We were like all in costume and just like a very unexpected part of the show and honestly like to bring it full circle just like you know, just keep saying yes to things like I want you to be a pirate and you're like, sure Sure, Tina Lando, you got it. You only have a pirate. All right, and just like just trying to be, like, as excited and agreeable to anything because like, that's really what I saw a lot of in that show. And that's what made it a good show. Was everyone doing that as much as possible? Yeah, that's awesome. My wife Emily and I, we saw you in the Madison stop, and we love that part of the show. Hilarious. So I guess we're gonna start to wrap up here. So I only have two more, two more questions for you. So what are some pieces of advice that you can give to the gigging musicians who listened to this podcast? Hmm. Okay. So I would say, as far as gigging musicians try to do as much as you can, I know this may be a little bit contradictory to some advice where you know, you should do you know, you should ask for like payment that you think is adequate at all moments and only play if it's, it's that the payment is a separate thing, but I guess I'll speak to what I personally think Excel, like, accelerated my career the most, which I think is just playing as much as possible, gigging as far as like an actual client is a little bit different. But I would say play as much as possible gig when you're gigging try to get that that wage. But don't confuse the two don't think that playing also always has to be gigging. And vice versa. There's, I mean, obviously, your gigs you want them to be satisfying and fulfilling, but Play, play as much as you can. And I know a lot of people get really, I remember listening to like a Jacob Collier thing where he was talking about, like, the difference between practicing and playing. And now he personally doesn't really, quote, practice, he like plays a lot. And he's obviously a prodigy, and like, I think that really works for him. But I think I think there's like something to be said for that, that, like, I think, you know, you got to play, you got to get around other people and play and make a group and like, you know, try to get in somebody else's group, like, try to offer value to them, like, what do you do you write good horn parts? Do you, you know, play a secondary instrument? Do you? Like know, some kind of music from your family that you know, really well, like, Can you can you display this and like, offer something to people because I bet there's somebody who's really interested in it. And so that's, that would be my advice is try to play as much as you possibly can with as many different people and try to play your absolute heart out. And no matter what their musical setting is, I think that would be some of the best advice to somebody. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So we're just about at the end of the episode, and I really want to thank you, Keaton, for coming on to our podcasts. It's been incredible. You're the first Broadway musician we've ever had. So the last question I have is, how can our listeners interact with you further? Yeah, so you can check me out at my website, Keaton Viviani comm I'd love to, you know, get in touch with anybody who's interested kind of the same, same stuff that I've been saying here if you want to play if you want to chat if you want to get together and be practice buddies, anything like that i'm i'm most likely down especially in COVID times I really am looking for outlets for just connecting with different people. As far as lessons I you know, of course, to all the trumpet lessons styles, brass, brass lessons, anything like that. So, you know, feel free to, to hit me up for anything like that. And yeah, I'd love to connect. Awesome. Well, great interview, Keaton. Thanks again. Thank you. And thank you to everybody who is listening. Thanks for listening to the gigging musician podcast. I look forward to the next episode and may all your performances be spectacular.