What's up gigging musicians. It's Jared Judge and I'm so excited today to be joined by another special guest. Today we have Jennifer Roig Francoli, who is a talented violinist and she has some amazing awards and things in her background. I'll just share a couple with you before we get to introducing her. Jennifer is the former associate concert master and soloist for Grammy Award winning ensemble Apollo's Fire, super cool. Jennifer is also a former faculty member at the Cincinnati college Conservatory of Music, and she is also the creator of The Art of Freedom method for Conscious Living and Masterful Artistry. Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us, the Gigging Musician podcast. Hi, Jared, thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm super excited about you because you are a very talented musician. But you've also created something super cool for musicians. So I'm curious, would you mind just starting out by telling me about yourself and your musical background? Yeah, sure. Like you said, I'm a violinist. I've been playing the violin since I was four. I started off with the Suzuki method, and kind of did what you're supposed to do as a child. If you love music, and you want to get better at what you do. And my parents were very supportive. I feel very fortunate that they kind of guided me in the directions that I wanted to go in. And so I did competitions. I was playing in an orchestra. When I was a kid. I went to music school, I went to the Cleveland Institute of Music and then Indiana University in Bloomington. I was very fortunate to study with some of the best violinists ever like Nathan Milstein, Joseph Gingold. So I had a great background from teachers and just a lot of opportunities. So by the time I was 19, I had won international competitions, sold with orchestras around the world I had played in Carnegie Hall a couple times already. By now I'm, I'm up to four times, maybe five, next, if I play one in February as a possibility. So anyway, I did a lot as a teenager, and then I got married when I was 20, and kind of dropped it off. So I have a very unusual path where I've, I left it all, as a soloist, but kept playing and maintaining my skills, but got into the Alexander Technique, which is a whole new world and then kind of came full circle, maybe five years ago or so where I really took my violin seriously again, and started recording professionally last year during the pandemic. Wow. So in a nutshell, that's me. Yeah, that's an amazing backstory. I've listened to some of your recordings, and you sound amazing. So congrats on that. Thank you so much. If it's alright with you, I'd like to dig a little bit into that backstory a little further. The first thing is how, like you said, You did all the right things. What was it that made you motivated to pursue music in college in the first place, and stick with it? Well, when I was two, I wanted a violin apparently, because my parents are both musicians. My dad was an English teacher, Professor, profession, Professor, English professor. But he played the viola and trombone for himself. And my mom was a Suzuki cello teacher. And she just took the Suzuki method really seriously as a teacher and as a mom. So I felt very supported in that, but I was the one that really loved the violin. So doing the right things for me means I loved it. And I did the practicing, because I got really good support from my mother, especially. She wasn't pushy. I'm very grateful for that. But she did make me practice and I'm grateful for that, too. So I did the work on did the lessons did a lot of mental practicing away from my instrument just naturally listened to a lot of great artists as a kid went to concerts, just you know, filled my self with music. Wow. So it sounds like you were completely bought into being a musician from a very early age. Yeah. And I think the main reason for that, besides just loving music was that I was extremely shy. I'm not like that anymore. That's another story. But I was extremely shy. And the only way that I felt I could really express myself and be heard by people. Like my soul could be heard by people was through my violin. Wow, that's very powerful, because music is a way of expressing yourself, where other ways might fail you. Super cool. Yeah. So you put in the work and obviously you were getting a lot of positive feedback not just from your parents, but from competitions that you were able to win and appearing as a soloist? Would you say that every time you were successful at something that kind of fed your fuel and fueled your your fire and kept your passion growing? Yes, absolutely. And, you know, there's talent and there's work, and there's also luck. I do feel like I was very lucky to have been successful in pretty much everything that I did. I didn't care a lot about other things, like outside of school. I was a good student, but basically, I read books, and I played the violin. Wow, that's awesome. Was there anything in music school that you were unsuccessful with? Um, in music school, well, I did not enjoy secondary piano. I'm not good at that. And I just had to do it. So I did the minimum and passed. And theory was not my favorite. I ended up marrying a theory Professor actually and a composer. And so I see the value in it. But personally, I didn't love theory. So I again, I got the grades I needed, but I wouldn't say I was super successful. That's fair. I also had a similar experience with secondary piano. The first semester I ever took it, I got a C minus, which means I didn't pass. So I had to retake that semester. Because as a music education, major piano was required. Yes, yeah. It was required for me to as a performer, and there was no way around it. But that's okay. So, did you ever play some gigs outside of the performing opportunities on stage? Oh, yes. Oh, outside of performing on stage? Yeah. Like, did you ever do any private events? Oh, yes, actually. And that started even when I was a kid, I am. In the program that I was involved in. They were always making opportunities for us as kids to go out into the community to play at nursing homes to play at events. I would play I had a trio when I was a teenager, we would play weddings sometimes. So even when I was still in high school, I was gigging in that sense. And then I continued doing that. through college, not so much in college. It was more after I graduated, where I really dove into doing much more freelancing and gigging. Yeah, that's awesome. Was there ever a favorite gig that comes to mind? Um, I think really the the things that stand out are performances that maybe I wouldn't call gigs, like playing at Carnegie Hall and Tanglewood does, like you can't quite beat those. But oh, wait, I just thought of something. Does it count if I wasn't paid? I'd count it. Okay, so I think some of them Oh, no, here. Alright, I have two experiences that were really, really fun. I'm also Swiss. I'm a Swiss American. So I studied with Nathan Milstein in the summers at his Swiss master class in Zurich. And one of my favorite things was at the lunch break, or after the master class was over, we'd go out for lunch and get out our instruments. And we would just play and have fun at the outdoor sidewalk cafe and you kind of play for our food. Just because we wanted to play it's not like we needed to play for the food, but they were happy to have us playing and so they gave us food. And then the other one was busking in London, and I did that with a boyfriend at the time. We would just walk around London we'd fight it was actually illegal. We found out later Oh, wow. But we didn't know that. We were we were making money and like wow, I just made enough money to go buy some really cool stockings. And that was very fun. Yeah, that's awesome. Did the police ever come up and try to shut you down? They didn't but what happened was that we went down into the metro into the subway system. And there was another musician that came along and said, hey, you're in my spot. And if you want to be doing gigging down here is illegal but we have an underground literally underground system where here's the list which is under this barrel you need to actually sign up and claim your spot and like so the the illegal underground gigging network in London at the time everybody was kind of watching out for everybody else, and they kind of you know, let you know if the cops were on the way. I doubt it's still like this. This was a long time ago. Yeah, I'd like to imagine it still is that sounds super cool you you literally got chastised by the secret underground London gigging society. Yes. Awesome. So let's chat. A little bit about making money as a musician. You mentioned a couple gigs that didn't necessarily have a guaranteed payment. Although you did get paid in food and tips have Has anyone ever taught you the business of music? No, I would say no other than like friends doing the same thing giving you tips telling you who to talk to. I moved around several times in my life and so every time I would move to a new city, I would call ahead and make contacts with the people who knew about the contracting and kicking seen and, you know, move, meet with them and they would put me on the list and then you can I would kind of wait around and hopefully get called and you know, I would get called and then you have to play well, and then they hire you again. But I also had a pretty horrible experience where the subcontract or the main contractor, sorry, I said subcontracting but you know, the contractor, the main contractor in a certain city, at some point decided she didn't like me, so she started sabotaging me, and in ways that were really unbelievable. I didn't know that people could be so nasty. So I have seen really ugly sides of the gigging freelancing world as well. And I know I'm not alone in having witnessed and experienced some of that unpleasantness. Yeah, that is unbelievable. I mean, it's kind of a shame that there are these gatekeepers that hold the keys to your career. Yes. And if you unwittingly do something that upsets them, I mean, what happened with me was completely I was completely unaware of it. And when I realized what had happened, I tried to talk to her and make up for it and no way. It's like that, was it. That person just closed the door on me. And that was that. Thankfully, there were other contractors and I could go to other places. But you know, if one of the main contractors decides they don't like you, then that's not helpful for your career if you're depending on that kind of income. Yeah, for sure. But I love how you mentioned you had other opportunities. So diversification, that's kind of the key to keeping yourself afloat if one stream shuts down. Yes. And the best thing I think, is to have your own business, so you're not at the mercy of somebody else hiring you. Yeah, that's what we teach here at the gigging musician, podcast. So yes, 100% in on that way of thinking. Awesome. So back to your main story, you have been a successful performer, but then you mentioned that you stopped performing altogether. Do you mind going into that a little bit and kind of talk about your transition to helping musicians deal with pain? Yeah, and actually, I probably didn't say that accurately. I really, to clarify, when I got married, I dropped my solo ambitions because I had an ambition to be a, you know, famous international solo violinist and I was going in that direction successfully. But then, you know, certain events happen and I decided just to drop that, and it was kind of overnight, but, and I would have quit the violin completely because I felt like I didn't need it anymore, which was actually not true. And it caused a lot of issues for me later, but I did kind of keep maintaining my skills without having my heart really into it. But I that's a long period where I played in orchestras. As concert master associate classroom Master, back of the second violins, Tad chamber music grips did gigging for weddings. Basically, I feel like I, I even did some studio work in Chicago, I did a McDonald's commercial, I did something called the young Messiah for hundreds of people in a stadium, which I would never want to do again. But you know, I feel like I kind of had my foot into all these different areas. And another big thing was that I learned how to play the Baroque violin when I was at Indiana University, and I started doing lots of early music gigs. And eventually, I played with a Polish fire from maybe more than 20 years on the Baroque violin. So that was my main thing for a long time. But like I said, My heart wasn't really into it the way it was as a kid, and as a teenager, and I just started developing physical and emotional pain as a result, and I didn't really understand why until I got into the Alexander Technique. Yeah, for sure. Do you mind just kind of diving in a little deeper as to what kind of pain you were feeling? Sure. Um, I actually in college, I had shooting pain up my left arm into my pinky so that occasionally I couldn't even press my pinkie down on the left hand, which is a major problem if you play the violin, um, thankfully, it was it would come intermittently. And then I would stop playing for a day and it would go away, and I was fine. So I never really did much about it. And I've did yoga stretches and things to help prevent that, which didn't get at the root of the problem, but kind of put it held it off at bay. So there was that sort of lurking in the background. I also had a lot of back pain which runs in my family, but I don't have it anymore, because now I know how to deal with it. I had neck pain, shoulder pain, and I started developing performance anxiety, which I had never had as a soloist I got excited about performing. But when I was in the back of the second violin section, in the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra, I won that job. When my ex was teaching at Eastman, I started playing in the back of the seconds. And that's the first time I experienced performance anxiety. And I have an essential tremor that was diagnosed, which was never an issue until I started getting nervous. And then having my bow shaking and bouncing all over the place was a problem, you know, physically, but also psychologically. So I started realizing how, you know, the physical pain really was hand in hand and inseparable from my mental game, the way I was thinking about myself and my performing, how I was making music. Like I said, My heart wasn't really into it. And so that was painful, emotionally. And yeah. So it, it's like, you can't really completely separate physical pain from mental mindset issues, and emotional suffering. And we all know, artists are known for emotional suffering and mood swings, and being temperamental and all that. Yeah. But that's why we're artists, I believe, actually, it is because we feel things deeply. And you have to be able to feel things deeply. But you also need to know how to channel those emotions in ways that make your art great. And that's what I've learned how to do. And I teach that now, for sure. I mean, your situation is sounds completely scary. Because if you're experiencing so much physical pain, that it's affecting your emotional ability to even just perform. I, for me, that would be like the end of my livelihood. Yeah, well, you have to say it was never that bad. It was uncomfortable. Yeah. And the, it was more of the emotional issues. But then at one point, I really literally couldn't turn my neck in one direction. And so I went to chiropractors, I went to doctors, I did all the usual things people do, and nobody found anything wrong with me. But I couldn't turn my head to the right. And so I could still play cuz I have to turn my head to the left to play the violin. But I couldn't see my toddlers in the backseat when I was driving. So actually, the only thing that really helped was the Alexander Technique. Yeah, it helped quickly. And it was like a miracle because it helped every aspect of what I'm talking about. For sure. And that's exactly what I was gonna ask you is, how did you deal with all this pain? And tell me about your discovery of the Alexander Technique? Yes, well, I had first heard of the Alexander Technique when I was at Indiana University. But I didn't really get interested in it. It didn't attract me, I kind of did some sample classes that I didn't find very interesting, to be honest. And it wasn't until like 12 years later, that I actually clicked with the teacher that I found this, you know, it's like a music teacher, you're not going to study your instrument with just anybody. You have to like your teacher and click with them. It needs to be somebody who you can have a certain rapport or chemistry with. So I finally found my teacher, and it was immediately obvious that it was the right teacher for me. And literally, within the first few sec sessions, my neck pain had disappeared completely. My entire body was feeling free and mobile, and flexible in a way he'd never felt before. I had incredible energy. And I couldn't believe I was like, Where's this energy coming from? Because I had had horrible allergies and fatigue issues, too, which were compounded from having two little kids around. Well, so I suddenly had all this energy, but my pain was gone. And the best thing was that suddenly I was curious. And I was falling in love with life in a way that I had not felt in a long time. And so I'm like, Oh my God, my pain is gone. But I want to know what this thing is because I feel so great in every other way. So I kept taking lessons. I mean, I just couldn't quit right then and there because my initial problem, the pain in the neck pain was fine. But everything else was improving dramatically. So I wanted to learn more. And eventually I, I stepped into an Alexander teacher training course. And that entails three years of study to be certified 1600 hours of four, four hour classes a week for three years. Wow. And so I got certified in that mainly so that I could really know what I was doing for myself. But I realized about halfway through that I would love teaching it. And that's what I've been doing ever since. And I it's taught my total passion in life now is to share what I discovered for myself with musicians. That's incredible. So my story is it. Sorry, I'm gonna edit this out. But I have to formulate this question. Go for it. So I went to music school twice. And in both experiences, I had heard of Alexander Technique they'd offered like an intro course, probably similar to what you were offered. And I think I went to the first one. But like, I think I left halfway through the class. And I think it's because I didn't understand what was going on. And I didn't have that report with the teacher. And so I never really understood what Alexander tech technique is. And I'm sure many of the listeners of this podcast, maybe have heard of it, but don't know what it is. Would you mind just kind of defining a little bit what it is and what you do in some of those lessons? Yeah, absolutely. And I'll just preface this by saying I personally teach this in a really revolutionary, novel, new way, because I don't use my hands when I teach the Alexander Technique anymore. I was trained traditionally, and most teachers use their hands. Although now with a pandemic people have learned not to. But I teach a variety of Alexander Technique called primal Alexander. And so just to back up Alexander Technique is very simply a way to observe yourself to discover certain ways that you might be thinking like habits of thought that then cause effects in your body. So to make it practical, like if I'm playing the violin, and I have a habitual tendency to worry about what other people think of my performance, or if I'm playing a technically challenging piece, and I keep seeing the hard part coming up. And I keep worrying that Oh, am I gonna get those octaves in tune this time. So if my mind is not present, with what I'm doing right now, I'm either projecting into the future or regretting the past, or where you know, you're not present. And when I'm not present, my body is out of balance, as well. And my emotions are being pulled around into the past or the future. And everything that I think everything anybody thinks, complete is completely wired to what's going on in the body. So if you have any kind of anxiety, or negative or critical thinking, or, you know, self doubt, any of those fleeting thoughts that run through everybody's head, right, we all have those. But if you're thinking those thoughts a lot, those immediately cause excess tension in the body. Like immediately, you can't have one without the other. And if that's a habit, that excess tension in the body is going to block your creative flow is going to make moving your muscles more difficult. And you're not going to be able to carry out your musical intention as easily with your instrument as you would, if your mind were clear, and you were fully present with your whole mind and body stuff. So Alexander Technique helps you recognize your habits. And then it gives you very specific simple ways to be present, release overall tension, and carry your ideas out into reality with minimal interference and a lot of fun. Okay. So what like what would some of the things that I would see and hear in a lesson with Alexander Technique? Well, if you were working with me again, it would be a little different maybe than working with a hands on teacher, even though I'm working to the fundamental principles. And actually, Alexander was an actor who had performance issues, and he needed to figure out for himself why he was getting hoarse every time he went to speak So he washed himself, he observed himself with mirrors and figured out that the way he was thinking was causing the hoarseness. And so the principles I teacher, pure Alexander, but when I work with students, I'm actually helping my student to feel what's going on inside themselves. So like you as a listener, right now whoever's listening right now, the very first thing I would do with any student is to ask you to take a moment and ask yourself, well check in with yourself, what am I noticing about myself right now? What am I noticing about my body right now. And then most people have some niggling tension or pain, like, Oh, I have a little tension in my neck right now. So you just start by noticing what's actually happening. And then I give very, very specific thoughts that you can experiment with, to think differently, which instantly help you let go of the tension You didn't even know was there. So actually, I should also say, Alexander Technique is one of the best ways you heard it from my story. But if you've got any kind of pain in your body, Alexander Technique helps you to take charge of your own health and well being so that you can undo the pain yourself without, I've helped so many people avoid surgeries, I just have to say so much. So many drugs and surgeries and medical procedures are totally unnecessary. Because we do most of the pain by how we're thinking. It's like we do it to ourselves, but we have no idea we're doing it. Wow. So so a lesson with me is just talking, and I'm helping my student check in with themselves realize what's happening, and then give them an alternative to experiment with and their pain goes away. It's really quite, quite amazing. what's possible. The mind is very powerful. Oh, it totally is. As you were telling me about what what to expect in a lesson, I actually noticed myself thinking about, oh, I'm holding my, my shoulders up high, I should probably relax those. Yeah, that's exactly what you start noticing. Because most of the time, we're outward directed. And we're paying more attention to the conductor, or the other people we're playing with, or the audience members. And we're not really tuned into what we are experiencing in the moment. But that has to be primary. For sure. And does this work for any kind of musician? Or is it just limited to one specific type? Honestly, Alexander Technique is for all of humanity, not even just musicians. But I specialize in working only with musicians and I work I don't work with kids, although I could, you know, could be for kids as well. But my specialty is helping musician, adult musicians of all instruments and all skill levels and all genres. Awesome. Let's thanks for sharing Alexander Technique and your work with me. I appreciate that. My pleasure. Um, do you have any specific pieces of advice either related to Alexander Technique in your work or just related to gigging in general that you could give to the gigging musicians who listen to this podcast? Yes, I do. Have a lot of advice. Let me just give what the first thing that pops into mind and it's like I could get up on a soapbox and talk about this forever, but I will, I will make it like a one sentence thing, this first thing, do not undervalue yourself, do not under charge. At You know, sometimes there's a there's a time and a place for doing things for free. But I think musicians do musicians a disservice and the whole profession a disservice by doing too much for free and too much for very little money when what we do is actually so important for all of humanity. And, you know, the world is suffering and music is proven, scientifically proven to help kids to help, you know, everybody, so do not undercharge. What you do is worth more than many of the doctors, lawyers, psychologists like the people who we think of as making the big bucks, like what we do is at least as important as them so I wish that as a community, musicians would start charging what we are worth a lot more than what most musicians make. I can't agree more. That's so that's, that's my first little tiny bit of advice, which is actually a huge thing. But the other thing, like putting it into the context of what I do, and I have the art of freedom method has five pillars and they are purpose, mind body, spirit, and artistry. And they all go together and what this is is about making yourself Number one, like you are your own primary instrument. And if you don't kick Take care of yourself, your primary instrument, then you're putting your livelihood and your artistry at risk. Because if you're not taking care of your body, and you're just pushing yourself and you're not sleeping, and you're not eating well, you're not taking care of your most important asset, which is you your mind, body, self, you have to take care of your body, and you don't want to run, run yourself to the grave early. And you can't make money if your body isn't working. And you have if you have pain, you have to do something about it. Do not push through pain ever. You need to take care of your thinking, your mental attitude, your mindset, if you have performance anxiety, you should be doing something about it do not suffer. And you don't have to suffer because the answer is actually very simple and very easy to correct. It's one of the things I do. So I know that. And then your emotional state, of course, that goes hand in hand with your mental outlook, but it's not exactly the same. So taking care of your emotional well being is absolutely essential, because you want to enjoy what you're doing. You don't want to be stressed about money, you don't want to be stressed about where you're going to get the next gig, you you want to be organized, that's again, the mental thing, you want to have a system. And you need to know what you're doing, look at the big picture, look at the steps to take be really really intentional about what you want to create. And then last, but absolutely not least, in fact, it's the most important thing, be really conscious of why you are a musician and why you're doing what you're doing. Because if you get disconnected from your passion and your love, you're gonna get burned out. And that's not fun. And one of the ways to not get burned out is to keep learning, and there's so much to keep learning, especially if you're gonna build your own business, but you got to enjoy what you're doing. I love I always thought I would hate marketing. And sales is the last thing I ever, ever thought that I would be doing. And because we live in this world, and I needed to support myself when I got divorce, like ooh, Jennifer, you better figure out how to make a living. So I had to learn how to do marketing. And I, I approached it in this way of curiosity, and it's like, well, I'm not gonna hate it, I'm just gonna do what I need to do. And I got really curious, and I absolutely love what I do. And if you can find a way to love connecting with people and communicating your passion, marketing can be really fun. And you can be super successful and actually make a really good living, if that's what you want. If you learned to love what you're doing. That's right. Those are three amazing piece of advice. I feel all three of them. I agree with 100%, especially the last one about marketing because for the Gigging Musician Podcast, a lot of our marketing is helping other people have the events and experiences that they deserve. So if you approach marketing is helping people, you can't help them if you don't market to them. Yeah, and I would strongly recommend purchasing programs. I mean, I know you I'm here on the podcast, because there is a program here. And I don't know the specifics, but I'm sure it's great. But I'll just say from my own personal experience, I've had to purchase programs to teach myself how to do marketing, because nobody was out there waiting around to teach me, I needed to make an investment in myself. And in my future and in my business, like you know, invest what you need to to learn what you need to learn, but then you recoup your investment and like, by far is like going to school, but she you know, they're fun ways to do it, too. Yeah, for sure. It's investing in yourself. Yeah, exactly. All right. So we are coming to the end of this amazing episode. And I want to thank you, Jennifer, so much for coming on to the podcast. How can our listeners interact and engage with you further? Thank you. It's been really fun to talk with you, Jared. And there are several places that I would send people to who are curious to learn more. I basically live on Facebook. And I have a Facebook group that is free for all musicians. I would invite everybody to join it's called The Musicians Advantage with Jennifer Roig Francoli, my website is ArtOfFreedom.me. That's www.artoffreedom.me. And then I just want people to know that I have an introductory program based on the Alexander Technique which is for musicians of all kinds, especially people who want to find a way out of physical or emotional pain, like performance anxiety. And I have that jumpstart program recurring periodically. So if anybody's curious to learn some of what I've been talking about today, that would be a great way to get started and you can just email me through my website or directly at Jennifer@artoffreedom.me. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer, and to our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of The Gigging Musician Podcast. Remember, you are just one gig away